National Police Association Podcast with Guest, Christine Burke, Author, Trainer, Forensic Genetic Genealogist
Hi. This is sergeant Betsy Brantner Smith with the National Police Association, and this is the National Police Association podcast. I have such a fascinating guest today. She is well, she's she was a sergeant like me. So so, you know, it means she's smart and bossy and all that stuff.
Betsy Smith:But she's she's also very she's well informed. She's very sciency, which I'm fascinated by. And and so I she's somebody I've been following for a while, and I thought, you know what? You guys need to meet her. So Christine Burke, welcome to the show.
Christine Burke:Thank you. Very excited. Glad to be here.
Betsy Smith:So, of course, I have to ask you before we talk about anything else why did you become a cop?
Christine Burke:It was by accident actually. I got involved in it. I was working in a bank and we had these officers that came in and they would talk about how wonderful it was and I went on a ride along and that was it it changed for me. And at the same time I was working actually on the wrong side in the public defender's office. My mom had suggested for me to go work for the state attorney because we always used to watch the police shows and in the phone book I found the P before the S right in the blue pages.
Christine Burke:Remember the phone book those of you that know the phone book? And so I actually got hired by the public defender and I used to sit there as a paralegal and read through the cases that came in and the officers that were doing depositions and I got really really excited about I want to do this this sounds really interesting and I went on the ride along and that was it I was gone and so that's how I decided but I originally started as a reserve officer because I said I'm not going to be able to do this by myself right? Driving the car, the big gun, the shotgun, no no no no no that is not for me. But I went through the academy and halfway through the academy I said I can definitely do this and I can definitely make a difference. And like I said, that was it, much to my mom's dismay.
Christine Burke:But yeah, I just fell in love with it and, taught me things myself and being able to help other people. That's the main driver. My whole career has been involved in that being able to do things for people that can't help themselves.
Betsy Smith:How did you get interested in the investigative side of things?
Christine Burke:As in law enforcement you mean or
Betsy Smith:or in in the law enforcement angle?
Christine Burke:Well I just always loved the cases right so you know on patrol we're we're doing at least in my department we were doing minor investigations and then I always wanted to be a detective. I maybe like you or maybe like you know your community loved reading the crime novels and it's just so fascinating. I'm a task based person I love solving puzzles and I guess it just came naturally to me. And I was on a department, I went out, I tested and then luckily got promoted into the detective bureau And that was so much fun. So much fun.
Christine Burke:It's so rewarding. Think, I don't know, I don't think people understand how it feels to be able to provide answers to people, right? So most of them see the patrol side of it, right? Something goes wrong, we come running. But then, you know, to save maybe a baby from a pool or somebody choking or a burglar is in the house.
Christine Burke:But then also on the detective side, even cold cases warm cases to be able to give answers and closure to the family there's nothing like that so I don't know it's just it's normal to me I guess if I can say that I just always loved it yeah.
Betsy Smith:So explain to people what genetic genealogy is.
Christine Burke:Oh goodness. It is the marriage of genealogy, traditional genealogy with science. Okay. And your community may be familiar. I know you are with right?
Christine Burke:So we have this great thing called CODIS where people we typically have to meet match people one to one. They take a little bit of DNA and they match it. And that means that the person has to be in the CODIS database in order for the match to come up, much like fingerprints, right? It needs to be a same match. But in forensic genetic genealogy, we don't match one to one on the person.
Christine Burke:We match through their family. And that is why it's so incredible because the person doesn't have to be in the database. We just have to know who their relatives are. And that's the game changer. Okay, so it takes little bits.
Christine Burke:We have little bits of DNA that are passed down from all of our ancestors, and we all share those. And I liken to it if I may I liken it to a blueprint like a house blueprint. When we have a house blueprint it talks about what the structure is going to be, what the outside is going to look like maybe the landscaping, the roof, the colors of the paint. Okay, so that's the blueprint of the person. All right, in genetic genealogy, we get the whole genome, which is the blueprint of the person.
Christine Burke:And it tells you everything, what they're going to look like, how they're going to be built, how tall they are. And all those little bits of DNA make up the person. And we get each one of those pieces from our different ancestors, from our great grandparents and so on. And so if I can have that little portion of that piece from your distant relative, I can put all those pieces together and find those ancestors and put them together and come up with the suspect or person of interest. It's just totally fascinating.
Betsy Smith:So CODIS database, do those entries, if you will, explain to people where they come from.
Christine Burke:So is different than what we use in genetic genealogy, right? So CODIS is when a person, depending on the state legislation, is when a person is arrested or convicted, right? Depending on the law, they have to take a swab and it gets put into the system. And then at the same time from crime scenes, they take suspect profiles, some of our missing person profiles, and they put those in the CODIS database. But we have to wait if there isn't an instant one to one match nothing happens.
Christine Burke:Whereas when we use genetic genealogy which is a totally different process unfortunately we've got to talk money when we talk that. CODIS is great okay but we got the goose that laid the golden egg over here. So when we do genetic genealogy we just take that and we start building out the family so it doesn't have to be one to one. So
Betsy Smith:get did interested in this and get to the point where you're doing what you do now which we're going to talk about next?
Christine Burke:Yes well it wasn't by choice it was actually a random DNA test and fortunately or unfortunately I used to say unfortunately, I found out through DNA that I wasn't who I thought I was and neither was my mom. I'm what's known as an NPE not parent expected. Okay. Me and my father was not my father biologically and my mother's father was not hers either. So I lost, this happened in 2017.
Christine Burke:I lost 75 of my family as I knew it. And my mom was going through dementia at the time, severe dementia, and I couldn't ask her. And so that's what happened. You don't, like you think you know who you are, but when you lose your identity, man, that was tough for me. And also being an investigator, I'm also a private investigator, not being able to figure it out, I'm still recovering from that.
Christine Burke:Okay. And so I paid the experts and they couldn't help me and they said well you just need to wait for a better match but I had to find out who I was and so I set about learning it and so for about three years I stomped my feet and I said God why would you do this to me? I didn't have a great childhood. I didn't know Burke okay that's what we call bio father or a birth certificate father. I didn't know him he was never in my life so I said God why would you do this to me?
Christine Burke:And then one day I said oh I get it now you know instead of why me I said why not me because I looked at my entire career law enforcement trainer, detective, SART all this stuff and I had been when I figured out who I was I had been figuring helping people find their biological family in as little as an hour. Okay adoptees, MPEs like me and I said whoo I said something else but I said oh my goodness my guys need this okay and I started training them I said okay I've got I've got to get this in their hands and that's how it came about. It was never my intention to I wasn't a genealogy fan. I wasn't really a true crime fan. Was gonna say it happened to me but it happened for me and here we are.
Christine Burke:I believe that this is my mission. This is my new mission to continue the same work just in a different fashion.
Betsy Smith:So how can genetic genealogy help us solve, for example, cold cases?
Christine Burke:Well, one thing I'll let you know, we have over, and I looked the other day, we have over 14,000 or let me correct that 15,400 unidentified human remains cases across The United States. Now I knew we had those folks, but until I got into this work, didn't realize we had that many. Okay. So that's not even touching the cold cases, right? And those are estimated to be in the hundreds of thousands.
Christine Burke:And we have our new cases such as some that we've recently seen. And the way that genetic genealogy is so amazing is because you can instantaneously get a lead. Because as soon as you get at least one match, you have a surname, right? So you can imagine we go to a case, we've got nothing, we've got a homicide, know, no video, no nothing, no witnesses, and the deceased person can't talk. The only thing that can talk is the DNA.
Christine Burke:And if we put it in CODIS and we don't get a match, we have nothing, right? We do the victimology, we do the background and everything. But if we don't have any leads, we don't have anything. But with the forensic genetic genealogy, as soon as we get the matches back, remember, CODIS has to be one to one or a very close family member. But as soon as we get the matches back, those are all relatives of the suspect.
Christine Burke:Okay? So each one is a lead, right? Think about when you worked a case and there was no solution and if somebody said hey you know try you know Jack Andrews whatever and and it gives you something to go on so that's how it's even even if we don't build it eventually we're able to build the tree completely down to the person of interest or the suspect but even without that we have new leads to go on instantaneously. I it's I can't say amazing enough. Yes.
Betsy Smith:And that's the thing. And this type of technology, I guess, if you will, has been instrumental in some fairly infamous cases, right?
Christine Burke:Absolutely, absolutely. And in fact, we just saw it in the Brian Koehberger case.
Betsy Smith:Talk about that. I've read media accounts of that that don't explain it very well. Can you explain to people how this type of investigative tool really made that case?
Christine Burke:Well, I'm not sure exactly what they were relying on, right? And we don't want a Monday morning quarterback, but it did play an integral part because they were able to narrow it down. And as I was saying, even to get a lead. But in that case, they were able to narrow it down to a group of family members. I wasn't in that so I don't know how close they originally got to Brian but we've heard that they got they went down to his father's house they were either following him or following following his father and they were able to pull trash and and confirm the match right.
Christine Burke:So they obviously got around the family so that they know that it's maybe the family of origin or I don't want to say close family I don't know what the next level is but they were able to get into that closer family network and then you determine, you work it through to figure who would be around the right age, who would be living in the right area, traditional police work. And so that's how they were able to do it. And then when they went out and got the DNA even though it was the father there's scientific you know statistics and things that it can't you know with DNA can't be anything else right so we apply the science and there's your answer. So that was confirming either whether it started with the DNA to put them on him or it started with the car, right? Because we had the things about the car and we had the things with the phone and the cell phone ping so I'm not sure which one came before but but yes when you get right in that family you're looking at a suspect and you get right in that family you're like okay there you go yeah
Betsy Smith:so you train people how to utilize this technology or this tool. How do you do that? How do you pluck somebody off the street and start teaching them all this? Do they have to have a biology degree or how complicated is it?
Christine Burke:Oh, absolutely not. I don't have a biology degree. I don't have a big science background. It's applying the science. Okay so it's understanding the science and applying the science.
Christine Burke:It's more tactical than theory and anybody with a desire to learn can do it right. I taught myself. I teach them my exact same method right it's the same one I have a forty eight hour case solve on a thirty year plus cold case and it is just a repeatable that was amazing that was just it's a repeatable process how you interpret the science how you look at what the genealogy is telling you and how you narrow down for lack of a better word it could be an unknown human or your suspect pool but no anybody who's willing to learn and follow the process and do what the science tells you it's like you're interpreting it and that's it and coming up with theories but we love to have people. I've got all kinds of people from all walks of life and it's amazing.
Betsy Smith:And that's the thing you don't need to be a police officer
Christine Burke:to be able
Betsy Smith:to do this. And this is one of the things you and I were talking about before the show, is that because law enforcement is, let's face it, so short staffed, you know, especially sworn personnel. This is something that civilians can do who want to be involved in law enforcement, wanna be involved in investigations, and like you said, helping the community, helping solve cases. But they don't have to be a cop. They don't have to go to the police academy.
Betsy Smith:They don't have to be on patrol. Right? Talk about that.
Christine Burke:Absolutely not. Well, I think maybe the public is unaware that, you know, with these shortages that we're seeing, it takes about three to five years to actually, what I say, grow a cop. Okay? And that's a patrol officer. That's not a seasoned detective, somebody that's able to work these cases.
Christine Burke:And when I train law enforcement, because this same program is the program I trained to law enforcement, I tell them, please, you've got to get a couple analysts in here. And those can be civilians that support you and build the trees and do that work while they're out doing the things that they need to do because of their sworn cape. They have the badge because they're sworn capabilities. But no, I've people as old as 74 and as young as 22. And as long as you have the capability and you understand it, we talk about getting prepared for court and how to develop proof.
Christine Burke:We talk about probable cause. We talk about investigative, regular homicide investigation type things, and we learn the process from start to finish. But this is a great opportunity for civilians to get involved. Maybe you've got people that said, you know, I always wish I would have, Okay. But we've got such great skills within the community that our agencies can definitely take advantage of.
Christine Burke:And we need it. We need it because we just don't have this foreign population. It's so unfortunate, but I love it because it's, dare I say, fun. I mean, I hate to say that because law enforcement is a very serious profession, but man it's fun and so rewarding.
Betsy Smith:What is that like to be able to take a cold case that's a decade or two or more years old and apply this science to it and solve a case.
Christine Burke:It's almost like as you were talking, I was picturing myself on the street right putting handcuffs on somebody you know like maybe after a foot chase or something right you know what I'm talking about you're like okay gotcha and then I'm picturing some of my cases where I'm giving answers to the family and it's almost unbelievable because okay so you had this like disappearing ink or those things right like it almost appears before your face like you're doing things but you're not doing things. Don't know if I can explain it properly but the person like all of a sudden it just clicks and there's the person and you almost don't believe it And then you have to do a double take and yeah, it's incredible. And then to have the family and to get the answers for the family and to get the answers for the police too, right? A lot of them are so beat down in the job and the job isn't, not that I don't want to say fun, but it's not enjoyable. The reason that they got in, the passion and all this stuff, the morale is just so down.
Christine Burke:But I don't know if I can adequately describe it. It just appears in front of your face and you just get like a warm glow. It sounds like I'm having moment or something but it it I there's no words there's no words best thing ever best thing ever
Betsy Smith:I I love that you know because it is a you know and again every agency you know has a list of cold cases where things have just stopped. And how much genetic material, if you will, do you need as a cold case investigator to apply this technology to it?
Christine Burke:My gosh, well I'm not the scientist, But I will tell you we've got some great labs that doing great things and and I'm glad you mentioned this because if we have any agencies that are listening out there the strides that we've made in technology we are able to take I shouldn't let myself in there but the labs are able to take tiny bits and amplify it and do great things with it and recover DNA from areas that we would have never thought possible. Okay. And so I also urge all the agencies, please go back and revisit these cases even just a couple years. I had an agency, I was working a case and they had just looked at it a couple years previously and it was '22. And I was like, no, let's go back again.
Christine Burke:Let's go back again. And we were able to get DNA usable DNA for forensic genetic genealogy. So you just can't give up right I mean you know that's the cop spirit never give up and they're able to do amazing things so keep testing keep testing keep testing and yes I mean the answers are there even if we just get one match with one surname which is not you know like a last name that's huge.
Betsy Smith:And that's the thing is just to even get that that's the genealogy part of it,
Christine Burke:Well, the match, right? Yeah.
Betsy Smith:Yeah. Even if you don't get that one on one match, you can get something that then a traditional investigator can take and move forward with, correct?
Christine Burke:Absolutely. So let's just say, I mean, we put the DNA in, we can get, anything from hundreds of matches to thousands of matches. Okay? And then we apply the science to it. The science designates relationships.
Christine Burke:So if you're an investigator and I come to you and I say, hey, we don't know who this suspect is, but this person, like this gal right here, they share like a great great grandparent or something and we can build out the family tree. That's huge because we know who the family is. And that, right? Like that's when we have nothing, that's huge. That's something to go on.
Christine Burke:Let alone then we build out all those matches and we build the complete family and we apply the science and all that stuff and then we narrow it down to one person. So there's no way there's not a win. First out of the gate with just the name like I it's amazing. There's no way it's not a win. You always have a lead and I believe you can always narrow it down to a person of interest right then you start looking at who was where when right who was at who was near the scene of the crime and and and that sort of stuff yeah it's yeah.
Christine Burke:It really is.
Betsy Smith:You gotta be doing it. It's the perfect marriage of science and technology including genealogy and traditional investigative methods. I love that you're so passionate about it. Where can people find out more about you and your trainings? Where can they follow you on social media?
Betsy Smith:Give us all of it.
Christine Burke:So they could go to my website christineburke.com and they can also reach out to me if they want more information. I've got training starting in January for both sides, law enforcement and civilians. And I'm on X mostly. I am on Instagram. I'm a little bit on TikTok, but X is usually the social media that you can find me in or LinkedIn if you'd like to connect if you're a professional and I'd love to hear from everybody.
Christine Burke:However I can help, even people if they've got some, as I refer to it, DNA drama, they've got some family mystery that they can't solve, I would love to be able to help them.
Betsy Smith:And I think that that's another extraordinary part of this piece because I think as DNA technology continues and people are more interested in that and their own genealogy, that people are really digging into the past and getting more and more fascinated with their own background, their own family. And that's one of the other things that I love that you're helping people do. And it's such an important role. I hope people reach out to you. And Christine, I can't thank you enough for spending time with us today.
Betsy Smith:And if you'd like more information about the National Police Association, you can visit us at nationalpolice.org.
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