National Police Association Podcast with Guest, Dr. Trevor Wilkins, PhD, Former LEO and Psychotherapist https://national-police-association.transistor.fm/21
Hi. This is sergeant Betsy Brantner Smith with the National Police Association, and this is the National Police Association podcast. I have a guest with me today. I've been trying to get on for literally for years, and he and I he's busier than I am. And but he's a friend of mine.
Betsy Smith:We have a lot of mutual goals and things that we've been involved in in this profession. And so I finally got the chance to bring him on the show because you all need to meet him. Doctor Trevor, welcome to the show.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Thank you. It has been a while. We've known each other for a while now. And, you know, your your long history of doing this, and, man, we just couldn't couldn't catch up.
Betsy Smith:I know. We finally get to do this. And we get to see each other a couple times a year. Sure. Yeah.
Betsy Smith:And we're gonna talk about that. But, first and foremost, I gotta ask you the question I ask every cop. Why'd you become a cop?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I I wish I could say it was for for all for some nobility of saving the world or, honestly, I so I started becoming volunteering with EMS when I was 16. I actually finished my EMT in my senior year of high school when I was 17 and started as an EMT when I turned 18. And I did that for a couple of years, really enjoyed it. My my plan was kind of stay in that. I really wanna do prehospital medicine, and I made the mistake, of riding along with a local police officer who was a friend of mine, and I thought it was way cooler.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I thought it was a cooler job. So, I really joined initially. Yes. I had some of those ideas of, you know, wanting to help people and and do good. That those always carried me through, but I also wanted to do cop stuff.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I wanted to drive fast and pit people and take bad guys to jail and help victims and, you know, carry a gun. I I wanna do the fun stuff, and it started out fun that way. Of course, you you have to do little more maintenance to to to drive through the hard times than that, but that's my real answer. I'll I'll be honest. It was not a nobility.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It was this looks fun.
Betsy Smith:Now I've seen pictures of you when you were a state trooper. And, you know, I'm married to a state trooper, and y'all have that kind of look. Right? Everybody even other cops, when we get pulled over by the state police and we see y'all walking up with that hat and all that stuff, we're intimidated. So how did you go from that squared away young trooper
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:to
Betsy Smith:the angry Viking therapist that you are now?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Yeah. And I'll make it even wider and crazier for you. So the agency I was with, we used to be split. There was the state police and the vehicle force, and we were split. And they were troopers.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:We were officers. It's just how we kinda separated the two and, different academies so we could recall different things. And then we merged together, and I think they still keep, some of the old school vehicle force may still keep some of the the officer nomenclature. But so now here, we had two agencies that were like that, right, squared away campaign hats. You know, they would eventually merge together during my career.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:But, yeah, even even not as a, quote, unquote, trooper, we were officers, we still looked that way. You know? It was still that. So, yeah. So, I I spent fifteen years uniform law enforcement, 20 total as a public safety with also being kind of EMS and dispatcher before turning 21 and to be perfectly honest, the the the towards the end of my career, that fifteen year mark was not going well.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I had really gone from, as I like to say, you know, poster boy state cop. I you know, most felony arrests in my units. I've gotten multiple awards for bravery in the line of duty. I really enjoy being a go to guy. Sergeant could call and get needed something done, we'd do it.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Right? We just work over and get it done. I really enjoyed the job. I really enjoyed it. And what I remember of those last couple of years when I to think of stories is just how absolutely bitterly angry I was.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I was angry at bosses, coworkers, civilians, family. You know? I would just sit in my cruiser just mad, and I don't love that about myself. That's where I ended up, but that's where I was. And I would be sitting there just begging for something crazy to happen, like a stolen car going by at 01:20 shooting a gun in the air because that was no emotion.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I'll just go I'll just go handle that. Right? So it was kind of backwards. I should have been in the median having an okay day and watching to see if anything crazy happens. So, you know, through kind of a series of definitely my own mistakes, letting my quality of work go, being very defensive to supervisors, and nothing illegal or immoral, but I definitely became a crappy employee.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I was constantly written up. I was constantly angers losing my family, losing my career. I I think there was a a big piece, if I have to be fair not to lay blame, but, that they didn't know what to do with me. You know, they they did not know that I was just going through a mess physically, emotionally, spiritually. I was a mess.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And because I just showed up into the job. So, eventually, I would reach out for help. They didn't help in any way, shape, or form. I don't think they knew how. And, you know, we we didn't talk about mental health fifteen years ago.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:So I don't think they knew how to help, and so I sought out help, and that was terrible. I went to two therapists that were horrible. I, made me feel even worse. And so my career ended. It ended before I wanted it to.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It ended without a pension. I did not qualify for medical pension here in Kentucky. We don't recognize mental health as a medical condition for pensions. So and like everybody else, I hid all my physical problems forever, like we all do, because it it makes you weak if you don't. So, I I was trying to figure out what to do with my life.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I had no, career, no skills, no education, and I was just finishing a bachelor's degree in criminal justice. I was hoping it would help me for promotions one day while I was in, and I see that my school had a master's in professional counseling. And I honestly thought if I do that for a couple years, maybe I'll figure out what the heck is wrong with me. Maybe I can help a friend out along the way. I did that.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Never wanted to go to school again. Ended up with a doctorate in counseling because this was becoming a career, becoming something I really wanted to get good at. I'm now working on my second PhD, in trauma informed care. So that all led up to kinda opening my own practice and figuring out what the heck was wrong with me, and that along the way, figuring out that there was a lot of mes out there, a lot, maybe in differing degrees, maybe they're in a place where they wouldn't admit it right now. And I don't think everybody gets to this horrible place, but I did.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And I was, and a lot of my friends were, and a lot of my coworkers were. So it be it started as kind of a mission to fix myself, and it became, you know, a pretty cool career and and my passion now. And as you said, you did see pictures of me back then. I was a very small, lean, clean shaven, bald headed guy for, you know, fifteen years. Towards the end, I started to get into power lifting a little bit, so that changed me physically.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And then, you know, the the hair and the beard come from not from a look. They come from my unwillingness to shave every day anymore. So it kinda became, I was at I was doing my first PhD, and a a professor asked something while he was running on the board, and he turned around and said, who answered that question? I'd answered a question. And somebody said, the angry viking looking dude over there, and it just kinda stuck.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:That became my nickname and turned it now a trademark, the angry viking therapist, and it's, you know, part of my online, social stuff. And, just just I've kept it just to, you know, I I don't practice pagan ways or anything, but, I am full of Viking tattoos because it's kind of my thing, battle tattoos. But, you know, it's just it's just a way to to I just kept it as a way to sit stand apart, to be set apart from kind of the regular counseling world, honestly.
Betsy Smith:So you you know, when you think about this fifteen years ago, we didn't really talk about police officer mental health. That seems insane to people hearing this now because now we we talk we we talk about it, I don't think enough, but we're talking about it a lot more. I I mean, did you truly feel like you were it? You were you were the only cop out there that had these these, you know, these emotions, these feelings, and this anger, and and you must have felt like an island.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:%. An island is a great identification of that. We weren't talking about it. We were starting to talk about things like PTSD. I wasn't really sure that's what I was dealing with.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I couldn't point to an event that was a problem, which is what I thought PTSD was or this kind of traumatic stress was, I was just in a mess. I was just in a mess and was a mess and absolutely felt 100% alone. And that is a very hopeless, helpless feeling and a not good enough feeling. So what do we as type a folks tend to do? Double down.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Right? We just work harder, work faster, do more. And, while I will always be a hard worker and somebody who who who prides himself in his work ethic, I was definitely doing worse. I was definitely doing doing more damage to myself and my own family, and I was kind of okay with feeling on that island. I I've always felt through different careers or even maybe different parts of life.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Like, I'm fine being an island. I'll go take care of this. I'll handle it. You don't want to, I'll go handle it. I'm I'm okay with that.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And I think a lot of type a folks are. Right? I'll just suck it up and deal with it. But it wasn't until later that I figured out the damage I was doing to a family. Right?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:People that I loved. It it was years later that that I was doing this, and my wife had gone to a conference with me and described that she and she and my daughters used to walk around on eggshells about what was gonna make dad mad next. And I've never laid a hand on my wife or kids. Won't do it. Absolutely will not do it.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I've seen it change relationships, but I've definitely thrown some chairs and punched walls and screamed when I didn't need to. And they've never been in physical danger from me, but, you know, the the actual and the symbolic parts of your brain don't know the difference between each other, and symbolic is enough. Right? Your perception's enough. And that that was heartbreaking to me to hear that they were walking around on eggshells while not being in physical danger.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:So I wasn't just hurting myself. I wasn't just dealing with it myself. And there were some people I think were trying to guide me in the right direction, maybe blindly, dealing with their own stuff. But, oh, yeah, helpless and hopeless is exactly what I would have called it at the time. And and if you'd have told me those words thirty years ago when I started this journey, I'd have laughed at you and called you weak.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:But that's exactly how I felt.
Betsy Smith:What do you see, now, you know, five years almost post, George Floyd and the riots of twenty twenty and the the vilification of our profession. On the mental health side, what are you seeing in our brothers and sisters?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:The one thing that I think people don't research or talk about well because we are talking about trauma a little more. We are talking about mental health. We are being a little more proactive with it. But the way we're still talking about it in the ranks is, oh, you've had a traumatic event, a shooting or a kid call or a bad wreck or a and that's what messed it up for you. I definitely have some events that I recall and are a little emotional.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:When I speak, I talk about a fiery wreck that I was at that I know probably, you know, chipped away at some of my problems. But I still, to this day, even, you know, eleven years into doing this after actually dealing with those traumatic events, I still can't point to a thing. What what we're not talking about very well is the cumulative effects of all this. Right? I I wasn't in Minneapolis when it happened.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And in fact, for that example, I was out of law enforcement. But, you know, the Missouri incident, right, years before that, it's that affected my career the individuals I was around and how we were perceived. So, it definitely grew faster five years ago. Social media and, you know, people talking about things they didn't know anything about, pushes that along, of course. News included, the media included, but we don't talk about the cumulative effects of all that.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And back in 02/2019, I did a a pretty extensive study, with over hundreds and hundreds of cops, over 4,000 data points. And what I looked at was operational stress versus organizational stress. And operational stress is the job. Right? The handcuffing, the late nights, the never eating well, the missing stuff, the fighting with people, the court.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:An organization wasn't necessarily admin, but it was a lot of admin. But it was just the organization and and care for policing as a whole. And that that was you know, my administration doesn't back me. I don't feel like they'll back me in use of force. They don't care about us.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:We don't have the equipment we need. We're dealing with these cumulative things adding up. Well, as you can imagine, the the mean or the average of those were kind of in the middle because I had brand new cops, and I had cops that had been doing it forty years in this study. So it was in the middle. But over there there's a way that you could mathematically look at the change of this over time.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And what what I saw was on on a 20 scale, operational stress. The job went down over twenty five years, and that makes sense to those of us that have done it a long time. You don't think about the handcuffing and the driving fast anymore, and court just becomes a thing. That went down, about 25 or 27 points over a twenty five year career, and that number is gonna be significant in a second. Organizational stress, like, not the scary part of the job.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:The organizational stress went up 67 points in twenty five years. It went up three times what the job was going down. And I'm not blaming that only on admin. It's the organization and feel you know, there there's a lot of different things in there. It's just not the scary parts of the job that we think is wearing us down.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Right? That was actually going down over twenty five years with the exception of some traumatic events maybe. It was the organization, what people think as a whole, the long term effects of the cumulative stress, and the lack of support. That is what is causing us problems. And what started that study was I had read a statistic that the average years of service that an officer was taking his or her life was twenty years of service, and that didn't make sense to me.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Right? Five when you're dealing with a lot of stuff and your family's changing and you're in financial strain. But 2020, you're almost done or you are done or you can be done in a lot of places. You're at least on that last, you know, downhill slide. Why was it then that officers were taking their life in rampant numbers?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And I knew it had to be more than just traumatic events because we all have them. It was the cumulative stress, the cumulative stuff that you deal with. You know, that's what was adding up over twenty five years. So I I think that's that's increased over the last five years. And and I think if you look over time, it will increase and not increase.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:If if I dare I say decrease, but increase and decrease over five, ten year stents. You know? We can look back on our two decade plus career and see that it was different than when it started and and vice versa. But, I I think that's probably I I would argue that it's increased. That that that statistic alone of sixty seven that went up for in the way that I studied it has probably even increased in the last five years because we're so inundated with the negativity.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Right? And and we're so inundated with the comments and the police experts, that think they're experts. And so I I I think that's that's more of a problem. I I think that's increased. You know, you talked about the five years ago.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I think that's probably increased. I think there's a pendulum to a lot of it, but, man, this one's slow. You know?
Betsy Smith:Yeah. You're you're absolutely right. And and, not just for current cops, but I'm guessing you see a fair number of retirees, right, because of that cumulative effect. And then, you know, plus that that the retirement process that we all look forward to, right, for the whole, at least, second half of our career. And then when we do it, that's stopping.
Betsy Smith:If you don't have something else, to to occupy your mind, to give you that sense of mission, all that, that's difficult, isn't it?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It is. Purpose is a huge word to me, and only have to have the perfect one. And I don't think that your that your retirement or or your life, if you didn't start out with purpose, I don't think it has to be Superman level saving people. Right? Your purpose can be your grandkids or travel or working the door at Lowe's.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Like, just having something. Now, obviously, those of us that have been in public safety or military, we tend to look for bigger purpose afterwards, but I encourage everybody that that's that's in a in in just in their own rut, not even public safety, but just in a rut in their life or retiring or changing. You gotta have purpose. You know? You gotta have that meaning.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And, again, it doesn't have to be astronomical, but with meaning is what's gonna get you through the hard parts. Right? Meaning is what's gonna gonna push you through, and we're we are meaning people. I didn't start. I said earlier, didn't start law enforcement for meaning, although maybe there was a little bit of it in there.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:But, eventually, that's what carried me through those hard years at the end was this was the right thing to do, and I'm gonna go do a good job at it. And that was the meaning. So I absolutely think that purpose after, whether it be retirement or where somebody's in a rut now, meaning purpose. You know? And that comes from different things.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It comes from all different things, but I absolutely think it's one of the most important things that you have to have to continue forward in your life.
Betsy Smith:Absolutely. So, doctor Trevor, you and I are both involved with an organization called the Wounded Blue, and you are actually our clinical director. I sit on the board. And tell people a little bit about the organization and your role in it.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:So the organization is a national nonprofit for injured officers, to help injured officers, and that could be physical injury, could be mental, could be some financial issues, but it it's for injured officers. And one of the things that was born out of, and I wanna speak for the president, Randy Sutton, but, you know, I've been with him since the inception of this many years ago. And it was born out of we were actually getting better at taking care of cops' families when they were killed in the line of duty. It's not a great thing. We don't always do it right, but we do we make a little bit of bigger deal out of it.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:We try to, you know, try to help. We weren't doing anything for the people that were still trying to work or just recently hurt. Some agencies, absolutely. I travel all over the nation and talk about public safety stress. Some agencies absolutely get it right.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Most of them don't. Right? It it's just not not ingrained in us that way about the injury part. You're supposed to get better and come back to work. So sometimes that doesn't happen.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:So my role in that, as you said, with the clinical director, I'm I'm obviously on the mental health side. I don't do a lot with the finance or the physical injury part. And what we have is peer teams or a peer team nationwide, and these are all officers, either current or former officers. Most of them have gone through their own physical or mental issues and spouses. We have some spouses on there too, public safety spouses.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And it is a peer connection. It's not, you know, it's not psychotherapy. We don't, in any way intend to replace that. It's very important. It's what I do for a living.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:But what I know is that sometimes what you need to hear is that the other person on the other end of the line understands. They may not know yours, but they understand. They have some skills and some training and some experience to help with, you being in the middle of this mess because that's when people call us. They don't call us to check-in. Right?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Just like in law enforcement, they don't call us to let us know things went okay today. They call us at their worst. That's okay. That's what we're used to. But, that peer team provides an ability to have a connection when you feel helpless, hopeless, and not good enough.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And those are words I used them a little earlier. Those are words that I thought I was gonna have to change when I when I started talking to public safety and and, you know, Taipei individuals and high achievers, CEOs. And because I was like, you you call me helpless and hopeless in a bar. It might not work out well for you. You know?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I'm a tough guy. Right? But every time I've used those words that that when you're at your worst is because of life life events that have left you feeling helpless, hopeless, or not good enough, and that's what's being retriggered today. That that's the feeling. It's not the event.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It's not the thing. The thing is the thing. The thing can't give us an emotion, but it's that helpless and hopeless and not good enough. And, again, I was gonna change that years ago, but what I've noticed over the last eleven years that everybody I've said that to that's hurting says, oh, yeah. That's exactly how I feel when I'm at my worst.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:%. That's it. Right? And you can start to see a little bit of a connection. And maybe psychotherapy is warranted.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Maybe a step up in care is warranted. But I'll tell you, even as somebody who makes a living as a psychotherapist, I think, I encourage agencies all over the nation, peer teams, take care of 8080% of your problems. You know? It's whether it's debriefings, whether it's just somebody they can call. You know, how many times have we we been in a rough spot and we we, you know, scooted up window to window with a beat partner that we trust and just kinda said what we were dealing with?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And they said, oh, that's, wow, that's a lot, man. I feel for you. I understand because I've dealt with something similar, and we feel so much better. Right? The issue may not be fixed, but it's just knowing that you're not alone on this island like you talked about before and knowing there are some solutions out there and knowing like, okay.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:So I'm not crazy. I got some stuff going on. Right? That that's what peer teams do best. And it and it sounds like it's it's, you know, surface level stuff, but it's not.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It's not. And so that that's my role at Wounded Blue. Of course, I also speak as you do, typically at the summit and do some trainings and and stuff. So that that's my role there.
Betsy Smith:You know, it's it's so important when we talk about peer support. And I've heard other people say, well, you don't need formal peer support. You know? You just all go out and have a beer, and and you'll feel better. And, and I have learned over the years that that's that's just not true.
Betsy Smith:Well trained peers in our profession truly work miracles. Your peer team is extraordinary at what they do. And it doesn't just they don't just help other It really helps them, right, to be a part
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:of the team? Yes. Well, it helped me. Right? Like, learning all this.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Now it took me a long time to get better because I had to figure out what was going on up here, what's the neurological and biological part of this that I can affect, What are the processes up there that I can affect to make this stuff better? Right? It took me a long time. I've I I've been very fortunate to do some very extensive and and individual training at places like the Albert Ellis Institute in New York. I did associate fellowship there where where, you know, they created the type of therapy that I do.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I've been very fortunate to train with some some some experts in the field about somatic types of therapy like EMDR, so, that specialize in military and public safety. So it it took a lot of years to really put all the pieces together, and I still do. I still learn. Like I said, I'm in my second doctorate now. I'm still constantly learning.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I I don't think everybody else needs to wait ten years, you know, to put it together. I'd like to do it in a much more rapid pace than that. And so, yeah, it it helped me too, right, which was kind of the point of that that comment. I had to fix me first. I had to fix me first.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:And not only did that help me and my family and and those around me, but it also gave me the avenue of, yeah, I know what's going on here. Like, let's work on this. You know?
Betsy Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:So, I I and I also get what I call borrowed credit. I don't take it lightly. I don't think you have to have been a cop to be a good therapist for cops. I don't think you have to have been in the trenches in order to to to be good as a therapist for and it's not just cops. Right?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It's it's linemen, and it's CEO high stress CEOs, and it's it's people living with high stress and and and crazy events. That those are my people. Right? I don't think you have to. I think there's a lot good therapists out there.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:But when somebody does come in to my office or they contact me online, you know, I do get an honorable borrowed credit of this dude's been there. You know? So I don't know your shooting. I don't know your kid call. I don't know your distress of the business that you have to run.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:I I don't know your crappy boss, but I know those things. Right? I've been in those things knee deep in them. So on both the business and their or business and public safety world. So it has absolutely helped me and does help them to your point.
Betsy Smith:Absolutely. Doctor Trevor, where can people find out more about the Wounded Blue, the Survival Summit, and, of course, you? Where can they find you and follow you?
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:Yes. The Wounded Blue is the WoundedBlue.org. Pretty easy to find. If you search it, you'll come across it. It's a rapidly growing program.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:We do have a summit, which she was just alluding to, a survival summit in late September this year, I believe, in Vegas. We've done it a couple different places. We tend to stay around Vegas. It's the, you know, it's the convention capital of the world. It's easy get people there.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:So, it is three plus days of people that realize what's going on in law enforcement, and most people there have been through something and wanna help and help themself. Right? It's a great three days. I see people so massively changed after after being there, being around like minded people, being around driven people. You know, sometimes it's nice to get back to your old unit, you know, and be around the people that think like you.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:For myself, the websites are you know, they go to the same place, the angryvikingtherapist.com, or, what I do online is called the neurotrauma project. So the neurotraumaproject.com, you can find me there. Social wise, which is where, of course, I update the most information, you know, you can search doctor Trevor Wilkins or the Angry Viking Therapist on any of those. The Instagram is d r, so doctor Trevor Wilkins, just all one word. That one probably gets the most updates.
Dr. Trevor Wilkins:It's the easiest for me, but I'm pretty easy to find in the LinkedIns, the, you know, the Facebooks, the, any of those. But those are those are the most prevalent, the website and the Instagram.
Betsy Smith:Awesome. Doctor Trevor, I knew you'd be an amazing guest. We can't thank you enough for spending time with us today. And if you'd like more information about the National Police Association, visit us at nationalpolice.org.
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