The National Police Association Podcast with Guest, Vernon Geberth, Retired Commander of Bronx Homicide
Hi. This is sergeant Betsy Brantner Smith with the National Police Association, and this is the National Police Association podcast. I have a guest today that I I've known for decades. I've known of him for longer because, among being a, fellow law enforcement professional, this guest is literally the godfather of homicide, and, we're gonna talk all about that. He's had an extraordinary career.
Betsy Smith:He has trained thousands of investigators. He's an author. He's, a patriot, and, and he's an incredible leader. And, fortunately, I'm able to bring him to you today. So buckle up and meet Vern Geberth.
Betsy Smith:Thanks for coming on the show.
Vernon Geberth:I thank you very much for the opportunity, Betsy.
Betsy Smith:So, so you retired as a lieutenant commander, and, I'm gonna ask you what the same thing I ask every cop I talk to. Verne, why'd you become a cop?
Vernon Geberth:Oh, I was I was mission oriented as a kid. I was a boy scout. I was a a bugle boy in the VFW. I delivered newspapers. I was a lifeguard.
Vernon Geberth:I drove an ambulance as a security guard. Everything in my life seemed to be destined to wear a uniform. I was always wearing a uniform. And I had a desire to go into the NYPD in high school, and, of course, I didn't tell anybody. When I was in college, My girlfriend, she knew.
Vernon Geberth:The only people in the world that knew what was going on was me and my girlfriend. I didn't tell my family. I didn't tell anybody. And the funny part about it, I was taking business. They didn't have criminal justice back in the sixties.
Vernon Geberth:Alright? So I was taking business. It was my third year. And the guidance counsel, who happened to be a brother, alright, because it's a Catholic college, he said to me, mister Geberth, you haven't picked your practicum yet. I said, oh, I have it all figured out, brother.
Vernon Geberth:He goes, what do you mean? I says, NYPD. He goes, what? You're becoming a what? You went to college, you become a what?
Vernon Geberth:I says, hey. Slow down. You see that collar you got around your neck? That's your vocation? My vocation is the NYPD.
Vernon Geberth:That was it. I left in junior year because the list for the appointment to the police department looked like a December appointment. So we planned everything around that. In the interim, I was hired as a World's Fair police officer, which was terrific because the World's Fair police department was based on the NYPD. All the forms were the same.
Vernon Geberth:All the procedures were the same. The only difference instead of u f, it said w f for World's Fair. So me and my girlfriend, we planned to get married, and we got married in October. We had a wonderful wedding. We went to Bermuda.
Vernon Geberth:I came back from the honeymoon, reported to my command, and found out I was laid off for the season. I said, oh my god. This is the first time since I was 12 years old. I don't have a job. What am I gonna do?
Vernon Geberth:So my wife says, don't worry about it. You know? You know, it's gonna come through eventually. I'll have a job. Everything's fine.
Vernon Geberth:I said, no. No. I gotta do something. So I drove a cab. I run loaded trucks.
Vernon Geberth:I shovel snow. You name it. I have no ego when it comes to work. I shovel poop. In any event, it was the season, the Christmas season, and UPS was looking for helpers for the Christmas holidays.
Vernon Geberth:So, well, I signed up. So the trick was you have to be there early in the morning at 06:00 to be selected to be a driver's helper. So the first three mornings, I get there at 06:00. Nobody knows me. They ignore me.
Vernon Geberth:I go home. The third day, they were short. Somebody said, okay. We'll pick you. Well, it worked out well because the driver was so impressed.
Vernon Geberth:He picked me all the time. Next thing I know, I have my own truck, my own route. Of a UPS guy. And and by the end of the season, they were laying everybody off except five people, and I was one of the five they retained. Then they found out I was three years of college, so they wanna send me to UPS management school.
Vernon Geberth:I'm not telling anybody I'm on the list of the NYPD. I go to management school. I come back. I'm gonna be a manager. All of a sudden, the World's Fair calls me back up and says, hey.
Vernon Geberth:Come on back. We're gonna make you a sergeant. So I went back to the world's fair as a sergeant. They put me in charge of liquor license inspection because I was a dopey kid and didn't know any better. So I inspected all I never saw so many bars in my life.
Vernon Geberth:You know, every one of those pavilions had a private club for their special people who came. And then 04/30/1965, I get my orders. Report to the police department. You're gonna be sworn in. And that was the beginning.
Vernon Geberth:So
Betsy Smith:That that is such a fantastic story. And and you you've never slowed down, I think since then, certainly. Yeah. And, and so you have this storied career with the NYPD, and you end up in a homicide. Talk about that.
Vernon Geberth:Well, before I got to homicide, you have to pay your dues. I was selected out of the police academy to be in the tactical patrol force because of my marks and my, you know, whatever I attained to do. And the tactical patrol force at the time were the green berets of the police department. No aided cases, no DOAs, no traffic control, strictly crime fighting. 6PM to 2AM, lock people up, put every violation, bring the neighborhoods back, let people go out unmolested, and I had a hell of a rest record in TPF.
Vernon Geberth:And as a result, I was assigned to a special plainclothes unit called the Manhattan North nighttime task force. Within thirty days, me and my partner made 20 felony arrests for robberies and guns. We're gonna go to the bureau. Big deal. We're gonna go to the bureau.
Vernon Geberth:So I got into the bureau, and as a new guy, I had a couple of crappy details, which is life, you know, no problem. In September of sixty nine, I went into narcotics. I think everybody who's an investigator has to spend time in narcotics because everybody's lying. Everybody's scheming. Your informants, you can't trust them.
Vernon Geberth:If you can deal with people in narcotics, you're ready to deal with the general public. So in narcotics, I got there was a couple of shootings. I got commendations, made a big bribery arrest, blah blah blah. I also got a civilian complaint from some character who was represented by a Latino politician and a Black Panther witness against me. Didn't think much about it until December.
Vernon Geberth:Well, first, I got transferred to Harlem based on the complaint. Then I'm in the special unit, taxi truck surveillance unit, which was the forerunner of anti crime, making arrests all over the city. It's December. My name is number sixty nine on the sergeant's list. The teletype comes up.
Vernon Geberth:I'm gonna get promoted. Nope. You have an open civilian complaint. The captain was out to get me the bastard. So I was denied my promotion.
Vernon Geberth:Went back to Harlem, went into robbery, from robbery, other things, had a fantastic off duty gun chase and shoot out to Little Italy. Another story for another time. Captured guys, got a hundred thousand dollars worth of diamonds, put me in for department recognition, should've got the medal of valor. They gave me a commendation because they figured he's a cowboy from robbery. He probably knew about this.
Vernon Geberth:Oh, and he has a civilian complaint. We can't promote him. So, that went on. And, eventually, I overcame all that, and I was promoted to sergeant And as a sergeant, at first, I went to a precinct. I lasted there one month when they saw how gone I was.
Vernon Geberth:They drove the police and command the crazy. Sent me back to TPF. TPF, once again, all kinds of exciting of, arrests, medals, and all kinds of stuff. I get assigned to a special investigation unit narcotics. It was the biggest case in the city's history.
Vernon Geberth:It was called Operation Uncover, involved all five crime families of the mafia. Two year investigation, 29 wiretaps, three bugs. Of course, I couldn't study for lieutenant. I got passed by, but I got detective sergeant out of it, which is lieutenant's money. And we ended up making a really big dent into organized crime.
Vernon Geberth:From there, the Manhattan North narcotics. Again, major case major case. I can't get out of narcotics. It won't let me. And then one day, I made this big bribery arrest, and that's another story for another time.
Vernon Geberth:But what's interesting is that the lieutenant was a eunuch, a real piece of crap. He cut two detectives out of it so he could put himself into it. He almost blew the the bribery with a stupid, stupid statement to these mafiosos. Excuse me, gentlemen. What kind of nefarious detail are we talking about?
Vernon Geberth:The two mafia guys look at me like that. I said, shut up, you stupid bastard. Anyway, I got even. He cut them out. I got them back in because when I got called downtown by the inspector, he told the inspector, you know that report that came down for that lieutenant?
Vernon Geberth:That's a bogus report. He cut out two detectives. What? Do you know what you're saying? I said, I know exactly what I'm saying.
Vernon Geberth:I gave them the names of the detectives. They came down. They got promoted. So and, of course, I made myself a very dangerous enemy. But did you ever see Heartbreak Ridge
Betsy Smith:Yes.
Vernon Geberth:With with Clint Eastwood? Okay. You remember major Malcolm Powers from supply? Mhmm. That was this guy.
Vernon Geberth:This was Malcolm Powers' twin brother, and I was the gunner's fault. Anyway, I escaped, and I went into Bronx Narcotics, the seventh homicide zone, and that began my homicide career.
Betsy Smith:So you have this, incredible career in homicide, and you gain a reputation as a guy who who, goes the extra mile and has some incredible expertise at a time in our profession where homicide investigation we were just starting to really get into the the, forensic side of it and and all of that. That was such an incredible evolution. And, and then you started to train, not just within your own agency, but around the country. How did that all evolve?
Vernon Geberth:It evolved because I was a real detective sergeant. I was in narcotics. Am I gonna walk into homicide with people with twenty and thirty years and start telling them what they should do? They already know what to do. It's my job to learn the procedure so that I can give proper supervision.
Vernon Geberth:And what I did is I selected the what I thought were the sharpest guys in the place, and I stuck hung up with them and I started making notes. Whenever I was on off duty, I'd go to a library. We didn't have Google. I had index cards. And I found everything I could on homicide.
Vernon Geberth:There were only three decent books that were worthwhile, and they were old. Then I started writing articles for Law and Order. Next thing I know, I'm getting requested to write more, and I get invited to participate in the FBI National Academy. Why? Because they wanna tap into my head and find out what I know.
Vernon Geberth:So, okay, no problem. I took all the courses they had. The only thing they had was sort of somebody else's cases and forensics. They would googled forensics, but when it came to tactics, they were out of the box. They just just couldn't do it.
Vernon Geberth:So that's when I decided to write the book and it was a lot of work. It took me five years to put that manuscript together. And during my time, I went to visit all theologists, the serologists, the anthropologists, the odontologists, all theologists. I asked for their professional papers, rewrote it in English or copies, and they said, well, you made it look too easy. I said, we don't wanna do what you do.
Vernon Geberth:We wanna find out how we could use it. And I started introducing forensics. And I'll tell you right now, when I first came into homicide, nobody was talking forensics. Okay? It was get a confession, lock them up.
Vernon Geberth:I said, you gotta have evidence. We need physical evidence. And I started a whole different protocol with forensics. And down the line, I don't know where to go with this, but I I introduced the first DNA case in New York state in nineteen eighty six, eighty seven, actually.
Betsy Smith:Well, talk I let's talk about that because that was you know, this you know? So I was a when you did that, I was a a detective on my own agency. And and, DNA was was brand new technology. And and, actually, around the country, a lot of judges and prosecutors were like, yeah. We're we're not, you know, we're not gonna get involved in that.
Betsy Smith:And, but you kinda rammed it through, and the rest of the profession took it and ran with it. Talk about the evolution of that.
Vernon Geberth:Well, I I not only introduced the case. I I began in involving it in my training. And the firm I used a private firm, by the way, because I didn't trust the FBI or anybody else to do it. I used a private firm firm. It was a lost murder involving this woman and her eight year old child, she and a newborn.
Vernon Geberth:And she was so viciously stabbed, it went right through her womb. In my mind, that's a triple homicide, but the heathen that ran the DA's office thought it was only two. The only evidence was blood evidence. And I knew the guy cut himself because there was a drop of blood walking out the door. So I said, we gotta get that drop of blood.
Vernon Geberth:And we're not taking to the lab. We're not taking it to the FBI. You're gonna send her the life coach, and they're gonna do the process. As a result, not only were we able to link him to the case, but it turns out it matched the previous rape murder from the year before that we never would have found. That was the power of DNA.
Vernon Geberth:Now this became a big litigation case because it's New York. They litigate everything. So the two defense attorneys, two characters, I won't even mention their name, attacked the science, and they were using it as defense attorney, but they attacked it. It came out to be a fifty fifty win. Half win, half loss, but he was convicted.
Vernon Geberth:Those are the same two guys that testified in the OJ Simpson case. I was a consultant on the OJ Simpson case. Both sides will be using my book, but DNA technology had enhanced from 87 to 94 with PCM and PGM subtypes and everything else. I don't wanna get too technical with the with the, with the DNA, but DNA is a blessing because it doesn't matter if you're innocent or guilty, DNA will tell the truth. It took the gamemanship out of the trial, and I love that.
Betsy Smith:What Verne, what was your I know this is a crazy question, but, what's the case you're most proud of?
Vernon Geberth:I hate to sound arrogant, but I have thousands of cases. I I don't know which one is I'm more proud of it. Each one is unique for some reason, either the victimology or the family I dealt with. A couple cases that stand out was a case when I was a detective sergeant, and everybody was writing it off as a, a suicide, domestic violence. The Weisenheimer that killed his wife was on the list for the police department.
Vernon Geberth:The sergeant on patrol was useless. The detective was useless. Everybody was just running around and was saying, there's something wrong here. I says, close the door. Let me examine this woman's body.
Vernon Geberth:And I fold her eyelids back, and I saw evidence of petechial hemorrhage. I said to the sergeant, this is a homicide sergeant. Clear as he go, who the hell are you, Quincy? I said, no. I'm a detective sergeant.
Vernon Geberth:I see evidence. And that I was proud of that case because this guy would've got away with it. Because all he had to do was get the body out of the apartment. We wouldn't have been notified till the next day after autopsy. By that time, he wouldn't have got access to his kids, wouldn't have got access to him.
Vernon Geberth:And so the tactics were very good, including telling this piece of crap that his four year old daughter will be testifying that afternoon in the grand jury. Now four year olds testify in the grand jury? No. Can they say that they do? Yes.
Vernon Geberth:Why? Because I work for God. Right? I don't know if you can see that. Alright.
Vernon Geberth:Also, Frazier versus Cook, nineteen seventy six, a Supreme Court decision. You can use trickery and deceit. So I'm proud of that. And then but there's other cases. There's multiple homicides.
Vernon Geberth:Oh, one year she's popped into my head. You men remember the movie Hannibal? Mhmm. The guy who faced fed his face to the dogs? That's my case.
Vernon Geberth:It comes out of my book. I had to notify Thomas Harris. I said, what school did you go to that you don't recognize your sources? Because I'm not gonna sue anybody. I just wanna correct it.
Vernon Geberth:So that was actually my case. Wild wild case. So
Betsy Smith:So you you end up training around the country. And and I'll tell you, every every detective in in my area, in the in the Chicago Suburbs, all had that sign on their desk. We work for God. You know, you're famous you're famous for that.
Vernon Geberth:I've given out 90,000 of those placards across the country and the world, and it's a nice reminder of who we're doing, who we're working for. And because I was training in the in the NYPD, and I was going out. I'm taking my vacation time to do training so I could pay for my college tuition for my kids. And I was getting access to a lot of cases across the country because the first thing that I had to overcome was the fact that I was from New York. I said, woah.
Vernon Geberth:Slow down. I'm not telling you how New York does it. I'm telling you how practical homicide does it because I had a fight with my own people all the time. At one point, it got so bad, the crime scene unit wouldn't respond if I was at the homicide. Well, Kep, it's a pain in the ass.
Vernon Geberth:You know? He wants to do this. I said, I want you to use luminol. Can't use luminol, sergeant. Why?
Vernon Geberth:It's carcinogenic. I said, can you spell it? If you can spell it, you don't have to use it.
Betsy Smith:Explain to folks what luminol is.
Vernon Geberth:Luminol is a chemical that enhances blood so you can see the blood patterns and traces in a crime scene. So that's just one little issue. But I ended up training a lot of people, 74,000 people according to my records.
Betsy Smith:Absolutely. I mean, you know, of course, you're a legend. That's why I'm talking to you.
Vernon Geberth:No.
Betsy Smith:So I'm the
Vernon Geberth:same guy I was.
Betsy Smith:Fast forward to, you know, '20 let's fast forward to to, 2020 and, and 2021. And we saw homicide clearance rates in, many of the blue large blue cities around this nation plummet.
Vernon Geberth:Yeah. They plummet even before that. A lot of people got promoted into positions they don't belong. It's very upsetting when you're a professional and you watch your professional status being brought down by folks who shouldn't be there. And I'm not talking about any race, color, creed.
Vernon Geberth:I'm talking about incompetence. I'm talking about people who are anal, that can't think outside the box. They can't command because they can't deal with people. But you put them in that position, and they remind me of the I know it sounds funny, but they remind me of the Pharisees from Jesus' time. You know, the Pharisees had all the rules down, but they didn't they didn't see the full picture.
Vernon Geberth:That's that's the problem. But clearance rates are going down. I've been on different programs talking about clearance rates and how many homicides an investigation should handle. And the truth of the matter is it's there's a combination of factors here. After a George Floyd debacle, the police were under attack, okay, to such a degree that no one trusted the police.
Vernon Geberth:And meanwhile, the the racial racketeers in this country were making money on this. We had a dopey a dopey vice president who went to three funerals. I mean, this it's it's really it's disgusting. But you're getting to 2020. I gotta tell you something.
Vernon Geberth:I had to stop teaching my program in 2020 because of the woke generation. They would get upset with certain slides and say, you're gonna be a homicide investigator and you can't look at the slides? They're upsetting. Oh, no kidding. You'll deceive in real life.
Vernon Geberth:Plus my program I have two programs. The one the practical homicide and the sexual related homicide. The sexual related homicide is a very heavy duty duty program. There are whole separate textbook for that called sexual related homicide and death investigation practical and clinical Perspectives. And it is clinical, but it's real.
Vernon Geberth:And I'll tell you right now, I could not publish that book today.
Betsy Smith:I actually took that class. And, you know Okay.
Vernon Geberth:Oh, alright.
Betsy Smith:Yeah. And you're you're absolutely right because it is horrifying. I don't think most people wanna really understand the depravity of, of a certain, you know, portion of the population. And that brings me to a question, Bert, I have always wanted to ask you. You you saw things that, you know, like a lot of cops, but but especially you, you have seen things that no human should ever have to see.
Betsy Smith:And and, for for decades, you have been dealing with this. And yet you are one of the most optimistic, compassionate, kind people that I have ever met. How do you do that? What is your secret?
Vernon Geberth:Well, I got a good wife of sixty years. That helps. I can talk to her. Yeah. I mean, she's like, you know, that's my clinical that's my clinical safe place to go.
Vernon Geberth:I believe in God. I go to church. I pray a lot. And I believe that I'm on a a mission, so to speak, to share this. I share a lot of material with people across the country.
Vernon Geberth:I don't keep it to myself, but I'm able to talk it out. And I I've been able to clinicalize a lot of this stuff. Now truthfully, I might have dreams that I don't know about, thank god, because I don't remember. But I've had my wife tell me, you know, after you handle that case, you were really crazy last night. You were talking to yourself.
Vernon Geberth:I said, did I say anything? She goes, no. But I could tell you it was stressed. So it's I I say I explain it like this. I I attribute this ability to this this armor of god, so to speak, that I surrounded myself with.
Vernon Geberth:But the truth of the matter is we're not ducks. Water goes off a duck's back because it's very oily. We're not ducks. Some of it has to seep through, and you have to have a channel. You have to channel it in a proper direction.
Vernon Geberth:And that's that's a secret. I don't think there's a secret. It's just what I do.
Betsy Smith:I think that that's one of the most, special things about what you have done is you are unabashed, in your faith. You're, you know, you're not afraid to talk about God. You're not afraid to talk about your belief. And I think that, yeah, I think that is one of the reasons that you're not, institutionalized or, you know, sitting somewhere with, you know, terrible post traumatic stress and and all that. And, and I really I do wish more law enforcement personnel, utilize their faith.
Vernon Geberth:Well, the I have the oath of practical homicide that that spells it out, basically, what we're supposed to do. Can I Talk About God on television? Well, not on CNN, but on Fox I can. Okay? I've been on Fox a few times.
Vernon Geberth:I've seen you on Fox. But the truth, they don't wanna hear it. These folks are different. And I'm saying, you know, you you just don't get it because we we have to have a higher authority in our lives to keep us on the straight and narrow because people basically screw up. Okay?
Vernon Geberth:We can't help it. We're people. Right? So having some direction and understanding that we have to report to a higher authority is important. I think we all should have that.
Betsy Smith:Oh, you're absolutely right. Vern, I wish we had about five more hours to talk, but, tell me, tell everybody where they can find you, where they can find the books, and learn more about you and what you do.
Vernon Geberth:Sure. I don't sell books. Okay? But you can go to my website at www.practicalhomicide.com, and you can find the book. You can go to Amazon and find The Godfather of Homicide, which I'm very happy, proud of.
Vernon Geberth:It's a legacy book for my grandkids. But I don't sell books. But I should point out that on my website, there's more than just books. Anytime I publish a paper, a clinical paper, a report, or something under research material, you're welcome to it. I wrote it to be shared by others in law enforcement, and there's a wealth of information out there.
Vernon Geberth:So be my guest. But do cite me. Do cite me.
Betsy Smith:Absolutely. I'll tell you what. That this is this is one of the interviews of my lifetime. I'm so excited to finally, get you on the show. And, I can't thank you enough for being with us.
Betsy Smith:And if you'd like more information about the National Police Association, visit us at nationalpolice.org.
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